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We've been in reconciliation for 6 months. Many on the SI forums would say that this has been false reconciliation and I've been doing the "pick me dance".

During this 6-month time period my wife has made some important changes, but she's also failed to fix or consistently manage the issues that she says led to the affair (these include but are not limited to, holding on to her resentment of me for the 22 years of marriage she says she was miserable in, her childhood trauma that essentially makes it near impossible for her to be vulnerable without lashing out and being hyper defensive, and her continued rug sweeping of the fact that I have ED, it's not going away, and it's not just "my problem" alone, not if we're in a marriage together). As of today, she actually agreed that this is true, she's not been able to do these things over the last 6 months, which is progress, but wow it took 6 months to get this far.

So where are we now?

Well last week she was trying to sell me on the idea of exploring a LAT marriage. LAT standing for Living Apart Together. This is where couples live in separate houses, so they don't have to share the same space as one another. I'm actually familiar with this concept by another name, dating.

I explained that this was not something I signed up for when we got married 22 years ago. And it wasn't something that I thought would "fix" anything, it would only make a future divorce easier logistically. However, I said in the interest of exhausting all of our options, I was open to discussing what this looked like and was sincere in possibly going through with it just to make sure we had tried everything available to us. This led her to back off completely from this "solution" and decided to just tell me "Ok then, you tell me what the solution is then." As if I haven't been telling her for the last 6 months. "How about you just spend time loving your current husband for who he is, and we work together to make our marriage better, know that it's always going to be hard work and we're never going to be 100% compatible?" I mean, in 6 months I've consistently delivered this same message. I'm not confused about what I want, I want a marriage where my wife wants to be in the marriage. Full stop.

A few days later my wife said that her individual counselor has been suggesting separation because she needs time away from me since all of her time with me just makes her anxious and she can't think straight. This made sense to me, and I told her that if that's the case then, "Yes, I agree that's what's probably best for you. A 90 days separation where you figure out what you want and don't want and then tell me." Because she seems to be the only one stuck "figuring it out" for the last 6 months. I've been solid as a rock on this for 23+ years.

I also said that although this sounds like a great plan for her and I agree with her individual counselor, it's a horrible plan for me. I said, "You left me emotionally 6 months ago. And when I reached out and said I would work on all my flaws and the things you were upset about, you followed up by having an affair the next week. So, you left me sexually. Now you're saying you need to leave me physically. I think that about covers all the ground. My takeaway is, you're leaving me."

My wife is now currently saying that she will just push through without the separation because she doesn't want the marriage to end. Ok, but how about you fix your shit instead? I mean, sure the likelihood that I won't want to continue the marriage after being left emotionally, sexually, and physically while working my ass off to save our marriage for 9 straight months is doubtful, but what choice do we have? It's either that or divorce. So why not double down on your separation bullshit and figure it all out and we'll just roll the dice and see if I'm still here emotionally when you get back?!

Now here's some more fun facts. In the last few weeks, my wife has also begun taking birth control for her health problems. The good news is she's no longer bleeding, and her hemoglobin has stabilized. The bad news is, a week after starting birth control her best friend from out of state wanted to visit and stay with her overnight in a hotel. I said, "No problem. Does it make me uncomfortable? Sure it does. But I'll get over it because you're either going to cheat or you're not and the next time I find out I'll be gone forever no discussion."

I'm really in the mind set that 1, we're going to separate because that seems to be the only thing left to try before we just pull the plug on this thing. 2, I don't think she's going to come back from separation and say "Yeah I was wrong about all this, I'm sorry" because her DNA is broken, she's just not capable of being vulnerable in a way that needs to happen for a relationship to work long term. I didn't realize this was probably the case the entire time I've been with her, as she was coving this up with toxic people pleasing, and I was busy escaping (as is my biggest part in our failed marriage).

But here we are. It's a crossroad that seems destined to end in divorce, and for the first time in 6 months I'm ready for it. I know I've done everything I can do, I've met all my commitments, I've worked hard to be engaged in the reconciliation process, I've been open to every solution she's proposed, I've sat through stupid and mostly worthless marriage counseling sessions trying to meet her half way on everything but often taking on 90% of the weight. I've allowed her to say incredibly hurtful things like "I was stupid for not leaving you when we first met and throughout our marriage", still trying to work through all of "my issues" even though it wasn't changing the way she felt or interacted with me a damn bit.

Despite all of this. I've told her repeatedly; I will not stop fighting for you until you tell me to. And basically, until she literally signs the divorce papers. But jesus christ, shit or get off the pot lady!

And another thing!

For the first time in 6 months, I finally got to talk to someone (in real life) that wasn't an individual counselor, a marriage counselor, or my wife. I finally decided that divorce seemed so inevitable (and I think it was the LAT conversation that really pushed me over the edge), that I reached out to my brother and just told him where things were (minus the affair stuff).

And I went to talk to him with the sole purpose of asking him if maybe, just maybe I could live with him for a while if we got a divorce. I was so scared that he would say no, because although we both really care about each other and get along great, we're not close. We only talk or even see one another a few times a year.

And as I'm telling him how fucked up my marriage is. He stops me and just says "if you ever need to come live with me you can." And I couldn't believe it. It was the first time in a very long time that I felt like anyone was there for me and I thought I was going to just burst out in tears in the middle of the restaurant we were at, but I held it together. And this is, I think, the anchor point I needed to just let go and let whatever is going to happen, happen.

I just don't fear being left by her anymore. Because I know that I've done everything I can, and I know that I have the support I need to handle whatever comes at me financially or emotionally now. I'm set.

He also told me "I would be absolutely shocked if she felt 'miserable' for 22 years. That's just impossible for me to believe. She always seemed so happy when she was with you." He just kept saying that over and over again like he was trying to wrap his head around why she would say anything so obviously wrong.

I am so sorry.

I think he kept saying it because when people stay talking that way there is usually someone else in the picture. It’s a classic justification used by ws- that they keep building on to it until they have rewritten the marriage. I also think you should just confide in him the whole picture because I think it would be great to talk about it with someone who isn’t her and isn’t neutral. If you aren’t close enough to him to do that, then tell someone else. It’s not fair for you to carry this in your own. You need someone in real life who is in your corner.

I think you should just proceed with moving. What she wants is safety to get to choose. You have given her time to choose. You need to choose to protect yourself in this. As long as she thinks she can keep going with one foot out the door the less the reality is setting in.

I am not saying so this to manipulate her or force an outcome, I am genuinely saying it because I think you will benefit from the space in ways you can’t yet see. And for the space to close after this point it should really be her moving mountains for it to be so.

I have been where she is- which is in active addiction. She is lost to you right now and it has nothing to do with you, the happiness of what your marriage really has been, this is all because of some fairy tale version of a narrative that gets her high and is very much not at all based in any reality. I have empathy in that way for her because I remember the sad and sick person I was back then. But you can and will start to heal when you do not have to keep trying to get her to see her way back.

Hang in there, now that you have reached the point you have you can take your power back.

Thank you, hiking. As always, I greatly appreciate your posts. They're so very helpful because you have firsthand perspective being in the WS shoes, being the BS, and finding reconciliation. You're an SI Unicorn! But more importantly you're thoughtful and empathetic to all sides.

The reason I haven't told my brother about the affair is because of my kids. They know we're fighting, they know we're in marriage counseling, and they know it's bad and is probably not going to end well. What they don't know is that she had an affair. She wanted to tell them. She wanted to tell them that their super mom fucked up and wasn't as super as they might believe. But I said I thought that was a mistake because of the impact it would have on them and their relationships in the future. I told her I was fine (and I am) taking it to my grave to spare them the trauma that I think comes with infidelity.

I'm sure to some I will seem like a fool, or someone just trying to play the martyr. But since I went through my own parents divorcing at age 12, I know firsthand how difficult and lasting that can be. I've also dated people that had parents that cheated on each other and I saw how insecure and broken they were emotionally, and I just don't want to pass that on to my kids just so I can look like a better husband. That seems like playing the martyr more to me, and I'm not interested in that.

I also think that it clouds the issues that I did have in the marriage and because my brother doesn't know anything about the affair, I'm getting his unbiased reactions now, and that's really worth so much more to me.

I think you can tell someone that you trust who would never tell or impact your kids. While it’s valiant of you to do that, there will be a time when the kids get older and start asking harder questions. Ask me how I know…lol. It probably makes sense to protect them while they are still young, we didn’t tell ours at first either. But I won’t push you on it. This is going to be a hard time not to have someone who you can just talk to that you trust. Maybe you are just not close enough or trust your brother enough. He is too close to the family and it could get out. Think about it. The reason I am saying this is because my husband didn’t tell anyone either for a long time and I think it took a toll on him.

Yeah, I get it. I think all that makes sense, and yes, it's already taken a huge toll on me.

But part of me also feels like the moment I tell my family; is the moment I can't ever be married to her (unless we've reconciled).

That makes sense too. I could never tell my mom or sister because they are broadcasters. I don’t tell them anything I am not comfortable with the rest of the family knowing.

Maybe sit with it a bit and perhaps the right person or opportunity will emerge for you. Even if it’s a live support group or a friend who keeps things locked away.

Regardless, losing fear of an outcome is a powerful place to be. It will get better from here for you.

Sorry, I can’t get past this part.

An old friend is coming to town and she’s going to spend the night with him in a hotel room?

You’re Ok with that? Are you in, or Ok, with an open marriage? Is this an ED solution?

If not, be sure that on that night, you will be at home in bed, wide awake, imagining what is going on, in detail.

Dude, don’t do this to yourself. Put your foot down. You’ll never come back from this, even if you can come back from her telling you she is going to do this.

Her best friend is female. But there’s no way for me to know who actually shows up at the hotel.

As it stands right now my wife says she’s not going because she will just "stress out" over how I’m feeling while she’s there.

However, an important piece of information is that her friend could just stay at our house during her visit, but my wife says she doesn’t feel comfortable with that.

This is par for the course since dday, there’s never any logic to this shit.

I really can’t trust my gut anymore though, it’s completely shell shock and EVERYTHING looks like shady shit to me now. I would literally go crazy if I tried to figure "what’s really going on" every day.

At some point, what’s going to happen will happen, and no I’m not ok with my wife running around behind my back, and if I discover that’s happening, that’s the end.

[This message edited by 4characters at 11:39 PM, Friday, April 25th]

I dont have kids, so take this with a grain of salt. But by not telling your kids some version of the truth, they will have to make up a reason in their minds=. And kids are pretty self-centered— they may think it was them that caused the issues in the marriage. Consider a version like ‘Mom broke a very important promise and although we have tried to fix our marriage, we need to separate." Make sure they know that it had absolutely NOTHING to do with them, they did nothing wrong. Assume they will fill the unknown - so give them answer. Not the gory details- but age appropriate reassurances that they are loved and are not the cause of any of this.

Good luck. This is all so tough, and knowing when to pull the plug is hard. But when you know, you know.

I agree it's wrong to not give the kids some version of the truth.

I was the kid who's parents chose not to tell about the affair.

My mom was the BS but I thought my dad was super man.

They said they were divorcing because they "just couldn't get along"

But my mom was mad all the time, I was 13. I hated my mom, and totally thought my dad was the victim of the evil bitch that now was going to steal full custody of me from my dad.

(He was a drunken alcoholic cheating with multiple women)

My life imploded, I did not trust or even like the one parent that truly cared.

Then when I found out much much later what really happened I was pissed off and guilty and felt completely betrayed all over again.

Not a good deal for anyone.

because her DNA is broken, she's just not capable of being vulnerable in a way that needs to happen for a relationship to work long term.

If you truly believe this then aren’t you flogging a dead horse?
In one sentence you are wishing for a wife, in the next you are stating that she will never be that wife.

Not pointing this out to make things any harder for you (two). But very often the issue becomes an "I want – she wants" sort of argument, instead of a "we want" issue that marriage often needs to be.
I think a good exercise for you two might be to get to the core of why you two want this marriage, and that core should be about the two of you and not kids or finances.

I agree with HikingOut -

I think you should just proceed with moving.

I am going to add - you should not just proceed with moving, but tell your WS that is what YOU decided to do because you see this separation as ending in divorce and you want/need to get on with it.

Why? Because, if anything is going to ring the bell with your WS, that is it. If not, you were going to separate anyway. My WH asked me to leave once and indicated he needed space, wasn't happy with us anymore, blah blah blah - same stuff your WS is saying. And all of this was because he was either pining away for his future with the AP and/or telling himself he and I were just done as I wasn't right for him. And he was staying as some sort of fucked up backward favor to me - because leaving me would just break my heart (because, you know, he was so awesome that him putting me though false R and taking the A underground and telling me I was crazy was better for me - sigh).

And yes, it appears you are playing the pick-me dance. I have a gold medal in this sport. I also have a doctorate in justifying my pick-me-dance behaviors. I did precisely what you are doing now - I will stick around to let you know I care (justification - I will not give up on my relationship - I am not a quitter - I have been confused before). I have made bad decisions before (justification - I deserved forgiveness so WH does too). I have changed my mind before. Blah blah blah.

My WH was going to keep doing what he was doing as long as I allowed it...and as long as he didn't get tired of dealing with me in that state. At one point he actually had the nerve to tell me that he thought we should separate because "You just aren't happy anymore and you're not fun to be around." Really dude? I wonder why I'm not happy - since you've been fucking one of your best friends wives for years, and telling me I am CRAZY for thinking that you are, and lying to me multiple times a day for over 800 days and then getting super pissed off when I have the nerve to question your lies. I can't imagine why I wouldn't be a ball of fun after that!?!?!?!

I have since retired from competition - but really don't try to win the gold medal I have - it's really just a big blob of used kleenex and in my case a pile of wine bottles and used ashtrays masquerading as something noble. But the noble part is realizing that you are the prize here. See my signature line - it's totally true. Get yourself out of this nightmare and quit relying on the person who has created this disaster to somehow magically fix it.

***as an aside, my WH ended up doing a lot of therapy and while we are not married we now date and he is much closer to the man I thought he was back then. So these things do not always go one way or the other. But I can tell you I am much better, and honestly, that is what matters the most.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 7:40 PM, Thursday, May 8th]

4char-

Totally get it, with the family trauma from divorce. Samesies here, it is my reason for staying. That and maintaining control over the impulsive entity that is my WS. You keep your friends close and your enemies closer, right?

When I found out from my WS that he cheated, he never said it was a marital issue. He said once that it was due to lack of affection, and I think I laughed. I was seriously the perfect wife he took total advantage of me. And now I’m a raging bitch. So yay. That worked well, right?

If he had stuck to the story that I sucked, I would have said great, there’s the door. (At least I think I would have, but one never really knows, do they?). Why be with someone who doesn’t want you?

Sounds like she’s miserable. Why try to fix it? She cheated and is unhappy. Move on.

Frankly, this is a narrative that might be true. So let her leave. Maybe she’s just an unhappy person, maybe she had unrealistic expectations, who knows. Or maybe the marriage was shit and this is a wake up call.

Maybe it’s you, maybe it’s her, maybe it’s the combination. It doesn’t matter now, does it?

What would happen if you said, "Honey, I want you to be happy." And then served her with divorce papers?

I mean, I’m sure you want her to be happy. I want my spouse to be happy. Everyone wants everyone to be happy.

Sounds like she has a foot out the door. What would happen if you close the door for her?

Let her be happy. And move on. Change what you think you need to change in yourself. And if she has demands, meet the ones you think make you a better person.

She broke the deal by cheating. You owe her NOTHING.

And on that note, I’m going to read this over and over and maybe pay attention to myself when I’m saying it.

Because I’m a big fat hypocrite.

Smh.

I think I’d lose my shit if my WS told me I had things that I needed to work on. No talking from the cheap seats.

I’m sorry. This whole thing fucking sucks. Why can’t people keep the promises they make and think of other people before they unzip their damn pants!?!?!?